In the first part of episode 5 of Writing While Disabled, Kristy Anne Cox and Kate Johnston discuss some adjustments they'd like to see at science fiction conventions that would help create a more inclusive experience for all science fiction writers and fans, including moderator training, fire safety, a technology mentor-buddy system, and more.

If you prefer, you can watch the full episode with close-caption subtitles here.

Show notes:

• This episode was produced and hosted by Kristy Anne Cox and Kate Johnston, and edited, mixed, and transcribed by Kat Kourbeti.
• The theme song, "Funky - Upbeat Loop" by ispeakwaves, is licensed under CC BY 4.0.
• Want to send us a question? You can do so here!

Transcript

Kristy Anne Cox: Welcome. Let's start over again. Okay. Welcome to Writing While Disabled, welcome for reals. This time for real. And I am still Kristy Anne Cox.

Kate Johnston: And I am once again, Kate Johnston.

Kristy Anne Cox: Yes. And today we are going to talk about so many amazing things, but they're going to relate to convention spaces and ageism and disability, and whatever else comes up with those topics, right?

Kate Johnston: Indeed, yes.

Kristy Anne Cox: So, who are we starting with? We were gonna talk about... moderators. This is one of your questions I wanted to ask you about.

So we've talked about conventions and disabled audience members and disabled panelists.

Kate Johnston: Mm-hmm.

Kristy Anne Cox: What we haven't really talked about is moderating. So Kate, what are you thinking? How can we help out moderators?

Kate Johnston: Well, just kind of in general, regardless of who your moderator is, as the people who are running the con, also known as con runners, you should be giving your moderators some guidance so they understand what you are asking of them. 'Cause not everybody's been a moderator before, not everybody thinks they don't have imposter syndrome. There are people out there who are super great moderators who think they're terrible. There are people who are terrible, who think they're super great. So let's give them some guidance about where we wanna go.

For a lot of places, that guidance would be in terms of, why don't you have a sheet, or have this printed on the back of their name tent, of non-gendered greetings for your audience.

Kristy Anne Cox: Oh yeah. So for people who might be still learning those speech patterns.

Kate Johnston: Right? Then they don't have to come up with "they-dies and gentle-thems" all by themselves, because these are not necessarily things that everybody does. It's wordplay, and that's not what everyone does.

Kristy Anne Cox: It's also generational. You have a lot of people who are still learning how to navigate spaces that feel very different to them. And they are very different in how we talk about things. So having some of those terms on the back of your name card, that's a great idea.

Kate Johnston: It might be helpful to just break some stuff down. Like you don't have to go into the 87 different labels for stuff. If you just go, "oh, can I use the word queer for that? Yeah, I can use that for everything? Awesome." So there are ways to make it less prone to error, or upset.

Kristy Anne Cox: Or an access barrier.

Kate Johnston: Yes.

Something else for con runners to think about is that you may want to allocate more of your staff to rooms where we have disabled panelists, moderators, or the audience—basically every room—just to make sure we have enough room, we have enough space to move around, that they can help reset the room.

Because if you walk into a room where everybody's been in a circle and you don't have enough time, you aren't planning on doing that, and you have more people in your audience, it may not occur to the audience to just start rearranging chairs.

Kristy Anne Cox: Right.

Kate Johnston: And your disabled moderator may not be able to start rearranging chairs.

Kristy Anne Cox: So having like more modular rooms that the moderator could have more control over?

A big one for me is, can the moderator fit behind the table in their mobility device?

Kate Johnston: Yeah.

Kristy Anne Cox: Do they need to go up a step to get on a little platform? Is there enough room behind the bench for a wheelchair to move past the seating chairs?

I've been thinking about how we arrange the seating of the moderators themselves. Like, who to sit closest to the moderator and who to sit farthest away. And it's worth asking your panelists if they have a preference. I found it really difficult sitting directly next to the moderator in the last panel I was on, because I kept wanting to lip read and if I turn and I'm sitting right next to them, I felt like I was dominating their entire field of vision and no one else downstream—

Kate Johnston: Mm-hmm.

Kristy Anne Cox: —was getting any trickle down moderation.

Kate Johnston: Yep.

Kristy Anne Cox: Which was interesting. I wanted to be at the end for lip reading purposes, just so I wouldn't be blocking anybody while I'm fixated staring at their mouth.

Kate Johnston: At their face. Yeah. And there's something also to be said for, if you are a person who has special moderation needs, please tell your moderator in advance. Email them. We all have email. As far as I know, everything that I've ever done, we have everybody's email previous to the actual panel.

I've been on panels where, you know, the person next to me nudges me, and because I am a person who's very laid back, I will pose a question to a panelist and then let everybody in the panel address it if they would like. And somebody didn't like that, and they elbowed me and said, "are you gonna put me in, are you gonna moderate?" And you know, I've taught school. So what happened after that was that she got the question every time, it was just asked to her, and then she decided that maybe she was gonna keep her critiques to herself until after the panel was over.

Kristy Anne Cox: Please withhold your criticism of my existence until the end of the panel! I mean, there are different moderation styles. There's not necessarily one correct way to do it. Unless there is, and if there is, it needs to be written and given out.

So if you're in an academic panel and there are specific requirements that need to be met for moderators, like behavioral requirements or whatever, people need to know about that.

Kate Johnston: Yep.

Kristy Anne Cox: People need to know who they're moderating.

Kate Johnston: Yeah.

Kristy Anne Cox: Like, if the guest of honor's on my panel, I would like to know in advance.

Kate Johnston: Also know who your audience is, in relation to what your subject is. If you are at a panel where we're talking about academic subjects and we have citations and blah, blah, blah, I probably don't wanna hear from that guy going, "well, I don't really have a question, it's more of a comment", you know?

Kristy Anne Cox: In an academic panel, the people that are going, went there specifically to make connections that will further that work that they're working on, they're there to get feedback from their colleagues, and maybe get some more cross-referencing and maybe some collaboration. They need to do that professionally for their tenure sometimes.

Kate Johnston: Which means that Joe Schmo standing there going, "well, I just wanna be in the conversation to hear myself talk", may not be the person the moderator wants to call on.

Kristy Anne Cox: Yeah. That's a good way to frame it, that he wants to be part of the conversation that is maladaptively being addressed in the comments line at the end of the panel. I always think of what would be a good way for those individuals to meet that need and my best idea was, I want all those extra questions and thoughts on a bulletin board out in the lobby. So if I'm standing there waiting, I can read and feel connected to 'Guy in the Line with an Opinion'. I might even agree. And it could even be on technology, it could be a Discord group or...

Kate Johnston: That's what I was gonna say, is that I find those on Discord a lot.

Kristy Anne Cox: Yeah. Or the comments threads under a panel. It is very welcome there. And you know, that's kind of like when we were talking about what I had originally thought this podcast was gonna be about, and what it has kind of become, which is the place where we discuss science fiction issues that disabled people can have access to, so the Accessible Con Bar.

Kate Johnston: Yep.

Kristy Anne Cox: So Guy in the Line, I see you. I wanna know what you think about giant turtles in space. I just don't wanna know it in my panel about corn.

Kate Johnston: Yeah. Time and place really matter a lot.

Kristy Anne Cox: Yeah. So we talked a little bit about moderators. I wanna talk about people who have trouble with technology. Can you moderate if you don't understand how to use a computer very well? I don't know, 'cause we rely on email.

Kate Johnston: Well, it depends on what kind of comm accommodation everyone needs, and what they're willing to put up with in terms of having this back and forth go on. How would you assess how your participants need accommodation?

Kristy Anne Cox: I think there are a number of ways to handle it. Some of it is knowing who they are and how they frame things, because a lot of people with disabilities who need accommodations do not identify as disabled people, and do not think they need accommodations, and then inevitably you end up on the panel and no one can hear each other because we're all aging, but nobody wants to frame it that way.

And so I think the best approach is to assume that there will be accommodation needs, the low hanging fruit. Just go ahead and meet those for everybody anyway. So you come prepared with some of the simple, easy things like having the name cards for everyone. The green room prep time beforehand is good. Making sure the email thread people feel like they've had a chance to stay connected.

Some things are gonna be a little bit harder, so you can ask directly, does anyone have a mobility device? So a lot of people will tell you they have a cane, but they will not tell you that they're disabled, they won't do it on a disabled form. So instead you skip that and just go straight to "what mobility devices do you have?" Or "is anyone hard of hearing? Does anyone need a sign language interpreter? Does anyone need live captioning?"

Skipping the general vague question of "does anyone need accommodations" or supplementing it with the specific things that you know in advance are gonna be the things.

Kate Johnston: Can I get one step even nicer about that?

Kristy Anne Cox: Please.

Kate Johnston: They are both four letter words.

Kristy Anne Cox: Oh my.

Kate Johnston: But one is easier to deal with for people in denial, and that is changing from "need" to "want". "Would you like to have a sign language interpreter", which is not me saying, "hey, Deaf-y, get over here!" You know what I mean?

Kristy Anne Cox: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kate Johnston: And actually, that's sort of that moment we were talking about earlier and we laughed, but it's like "disabled" versus "people with disabilities". And there are places, you know, at Dragon Con you could probably get away with Crip Corner, but not everybody—

Kristy Anne Cox: I like Crip as a term.

Kate Johnston: I do too. Yeah, I do too, but not everybody is going to say that.

Kristy Anne Cox: Yes. And a lot of people, that will bounce them right off, especially if they come with a guardian or a gatekeeper who is curating their disability experience. I'm trying to think of a way to say this— I'm not even gonna be able to get in the room if you have already said something offensive to my guardian. And some of that you can't avoid, but you can try.

Um, sign language.

Kate Johnston: I don't know that we've really talked about it. For people who have never hired a sign language interpreter before, it's a little bit of a fiddly process, but it's super great.

Kristy Anne Cox: When you did, how would you go about doing that?

Kate Johnston: What I did when I was going to Worldcon this year was I looked for sign language interpretation on Google, or via Google, and I picked kind of a middle of the road, like it was clearly affiliated with a bunch of universities, it wasn't just one person with their interpretation game, you know, sort of thing.

And then I ran into about the things you'd think from that level of organization. So it works the same way that characters work; if you've ever hired like Bugs Bunny or Daffy Duck or whatever to come do your thing, it's a half hour on, half hour off. So if you want them there for an hour, you're paying two people, whatever that rate is.

Kristy Anne Cox: I did not know. This is all new information for me, because I'm afraid of Bugs Bunny and Donald Duck.

Kate Johnston: Yeah. Having been Minnie and Mickey Mouse, yeah, I've met you. I've met people like you. It's fine.

Kristy Anne Cox: I'm hiding in the blinds, just hoping that Winnie the Pooh won't come talk to me.

Kate Johnston: Well, and that's totally fine. Like, we're happy to just wave at you from over here. It's the parents with two year olds who are like, "no, no, go hug Mickey!" And the kid's like... (holds hands up) Yeah. That's just not cool at all.

So half hour on, half hour off. You need two of them. So if the rate is 150 bucks an hour, then you're paying 300.

Kristy Anne Cox: Okay. So for an hour, because you need—

Kate Johnston: Two people.

Kristy Anne Cox: You need two people, 'cause you're covering—you're paying them for a half hour break. Is that how it works?

Kate Johnston: No, they sign for a half an hour, then they sit down and the other person comes up and signs for the other half of the hour, because it's like playing tennis. It's very physically—

Kristy Anne Cox: Yes. Carpal tunnel.

Kate Johnston: Yes.

Kristy Anne Cox: So for me, my experience with finding an interpreter is all through growing up Mormon, where there's always a volunteer, and they are doing it out of love for the community and wanting to share, which is very different than hiring a professional. But again, these individuals tend to end up with carpal tunnel.

Kate Johnston: Yes, they do.

Kristy Anne Cox: Because they get overused, so.

Kate Johnston: And both of ours were young women, and they were frankly hilarious. They had a really good time. And then going into pay, you're not paying just for their time. You're also paying mileage, you're paying parking.

Kristy Anne Cox: Yeah.

Kate Johnston: You're paying anything else. Like they wanted an extra $200 to research, you know—

Kristy Anne Cox: Vocab?

Kate Johnston: Yeah. Basically because they knew we were gonna be talking about AI, so they wanted to be able to make sure that they could do the stuff, and so we paid for that too.

And so it's gonna end up being more expensive than you think but again, they had a blast. We all had a blast, it was super fun. There weren't that many people at the panel and so I could have felt, "oh, I wasted this money", but I didn't 'cause we had a really good time.

Kristy Anne Cox: You know, I always feel like cons are missing out on not actively recruiting from disabled communities that have built in communities. If you are running a con in Chicago and you wanted to include more deaf and hard of hearing people, you could actively be reaching out to these communities and then eventually end up with a pool of volunteers who might be willing to help you with that. But you can't ask people to volunteer if they're not included, or if they don't know about it, et cetera.

Kate Johnston: Well, and a lot of that has to do with the assumptions that people make. I had a friend of mine who was doing outreach for a small con in Minnesota, and Sage Publications is their local sort of (journal for) Arabic speaking and brown population, of which there's quite a number, and also some of the Hmong community and stuff like that, like, not diaspora brown people.

Kristy Anne Cox: Sage Publications is a publisher?

Kate Johnston: It's a journal.

Kristy Anne Cox: A journal.

Kate Johnston: Yeah.

Kristy Anne Cox: Okay.

Kate Johnston: And so my friend reached out to them and said, "hey, we are running this science fiction convention, maybe you would like to mention it in your publication so that the people who read your journal will know that this is going on, and they can participate if they would like".

And the answer back from the journal was, "we serve people of color" and that this is not any part of their community. And I'm just like... what?

Kristy Anne Cox: Huh?

Kate Johnston: Yeah. Apparently, they just don't think that there's gonna be a future, and they would like to not be in it. Okay.

Kristy Anne Cox: Well...

Kate Johnston: Yeah. You gotta meet people where they are, and those guys are nowhere. So, I don't know how we break into that community, but now I'm angry and now I'm gonna find a way.

Kristy Anne Cox: So this is something we didn't talk about before, but there is this feeling I have that there are certain groups of disabled people who other people still see as, "well, we would reach out, but we're worried they would come".

Kate Johnston: Yeah.

Kristy Anne Cox: You know what I'm saying? Like, "I would love to include more disabled people, but if I did, wouldn't they be in the same room with me?" Like, this attitude.

Kate Johnston: Oh yeah. I get that.

Kristy Anne Cox: Which, I mean, it's ugly. It's an ugly thing to even say out loud, and I don't know anybody who's like diehard into that, that I would like, keep in my life. But I feel that way when I'm thinking about how to include and involve more people.

Kate Johnston: Well, and I think there's also another perspective on that, which is, "I am a disabled person in this community and I am finding it hard to navigate this community, even though I've been in this community since I was 10 years old".

Kristy Anne Cox: This community meaning disabled, or this community meaning SFF?

Kate Johnston: SFF. And so not only are other people afraid that they might come, I'm a little afraid they might come too, because then they're gonna have the same problems I have dealing with the community, won't they? So I get it, you know, I think there's dread on both sides about that.

Kristy Anne Cox: Yeah. You know, the "what if they come", this is leading me to a completely—it's related, but it feels unrelated.

Kate Johnston: Yeah.

Kristy Anne Cox: So I wanna talk about fire safety.

Kate Johnston: Okay, go ahead. Oh yeah.

Kristy Anne Cox: So, "what if they come, what if we invite them and what if they come?" Okay. So if you are looking at your convention hotel, and it's the only place that you can find, it's the only feasible location, I think you need to be very clearly thinking about safety planning for disabled people in the event of a fire. And if you have individuals who will need to be individually carried out by firemen, and you have six of them on the sixth floor in one room and there's a fire, you will have fatalities. They just won't be able to get everybody out in time.

Kate Johnston: Mm-hmm.

Kristy Anne Cox: So if you're gonna have a gathering space for people with mobility devices who may need to be evacuated in the event of the fire, I think that should be on the ground floor.

What do you think?

Kate Johnston: I agree. I am worried that there aren't enough ground floor/disability rooms for all the people who need them. And actually having been a state employee, we had that. We literally had groups of people, every office got together and said, "okay, here are the things that we need for the people to be able to evacuate from the building, which thing are you willing to do?"

And I went from "person willing to help carry people downstairs" to "person who needs to be carried downstairs, but can also run a bunch of the organization", in the space of two years.

Kristy Anne Cox: Yeah.

Kate Johnston: And so yes, we have to make sure that people are coming from the place of their strengths and where to apply them, but yes, you're right. And I think that one of the things that we should think about in terms of young people who are now coming to cons, is they should be on that team. That should be one of the ways that they get into SF is that, "hey, yeah, we're Fire Team. I was Fire Team at Dragoncon, I'll be fire team at Gen Con, I know how to do this."

Kristy Anne Cox: Yeah.

Kate Johnston: You know, "I am young and strong and those are my attributes right now."

Kristy Anne Cox: My dad's military and so when they did fire drills in his office, everyone was assigned, they knew in advance which person they were in charge of. And it's like, if there is an emergency, this is your partner. You don't leave the building without your partner. You go get them, right?

Kate Johnston: Mm-hmm.

Kristy Anne Cox: And so I like that, because someone was talking to me about possible technology mentors where like a younger person and an older person might be paired together, to have someone you could reach out to explain basic issues, you know? And maybe it's ageist of me to say that, but I think that there are a lot of people who are older who do have technology issues.

Kate Johnston: Mm-hmm.

Kristy Anne Cox: If you're not one of them, then you would be great. Maybe you would be a tech mentor, like, people can sign up to be a technology mentor, but maybe there's emergency evacuation mentor. Or not mentor, but yeah, I don't know. You know?

Kate Johnston: Yeah. Sure. You know, when I used to train horses, we used to say a lot about horses and dogs, "they need jobs". They are beings that need to have a use, they need to know what it is, they need to know how to do it, and they need to know when they've done it well.

Kristy Anne Cox: We domesticated them that way.

Kate Johnston: We did, but we are the same way.

Kristy Anne Cox: Yes, we are.

Kate Johnston: And I think for a lot of people, having that kind of job, it doesn't pay you money but it pays you in satisfaction and gratitude, and feeling like you are a part of something. That is so one of the things that we are missing as Americans, is feeling like we are a part of something. And if we can do something about that for our SFF people, we will feel more tied together as a group and as an organization. I don't know that this is gonna be a bad thing for us.

Kristy Anne Cox: No, that's a good thing. People—I think at the root of it, if it's not an academic con, they are going to cons to make friends, or to connect with friends, or to feel connected to a larger community, and it's about friendship.

And so a lot of what we're thinking about is how to facilitate friendships. I think that needs to be age informed, it needs to be disability informed, but yeah, helping people have a connection to others. I've seen a lot of different things we can do with that, but I really like the idea of finding ways to connect generational and clique differences, right?

Kate Johnston: Mm-hmm.

Kristy Anne Cox: So like, maybe you're military SFF and you haven't met anybody in speculative romance. Let's crosspollinate. That's what speculative romance is all about.

Kate Johnston: Mm-hmm.

Kristy Anne Cox: Well, I think we have time for one more question. Was there something else that caught your eye?

Kate Johnston: I really, really, really wanna touch on scheduling.

Kristy Anne Cox: Scheduling! Please.

Kate Johnston: Okay. So I've seen this go on a bunch of times and I just don't understand why it keeps happening. I understand that we have a hotel that has a lot of different sizes of meeting rooms, but when you have an author whose name everyone knows, and you have them scheduled in the tiniest room possible, you are asking for trouble.

Kristy Anne Cox: Yeah.

Kate Johnston: I saw, was it Joe Haldeman having a conversation with some other big, huge old science fiction guy, and I was just like, "why are we not in a ballroom?" Everyone knows who you are, we're not sitting around talking about the fabrication of O-rings for Challenger. Like, that's a five people discussion, fine. But no, these two guys talking to each other about science fiction? Yeah, and they're telling stories from like the Reagan administration? Everybody wanna hear that. And those that don't should go do whatever it is they wanna do in the small room, or go do crafts or whatever it is.

But we really need to think more clearly about that, especially since both of these men are 80 plus and that room was tiny, and there was not enough space for all of the mobility devices that needed to be in there.

Kristy Anne Cox: Yeah.

Kate Johnston: There were lots more people that wanted to be in that room and just could not, so that's one of them.

Kristy Anne Cox: Yeah. Well, and when you're planning mobility space parking lots, I want people to keep in mind that not everybody is containable in a rectangle. If you and your body have a limb sticking out, or something where you're gonna get bumped into all the time because you've been parked too narrowly, it's really good to have somebody there physically in the space moderating that. You want somebody on the elevators. Your job is to prevent other people from squishing too many wheelchairs onto this elevator.

Kate Johnston: Mm-hmm.

Kristy Anne Cox: And the other people will probably be other disabled people who are being pushed by someone who wants them in there.

Kate Johnston: Yep. The last two crowd control places that I've been to with an elevator that worked really well, they both had elevator operators. Oracle Park and the Masonic had elevator operators, and I know it's annoying and I know they sit in this little tiny room all day, but oh God, it made it happen so much better.

Kristy Anne Cox: Yeah. Well, I was gonna say if you end up in a room that is just not big enough, one way to include all of these overflow individuals is to have other rooms where they can sit and watch the same panel.

Kate Johnston: Yes.

Kristy Anne Cox: And then include them by specifically making sure you bring an audience question from each of those other rooms. I've seen that work very successfully in large church settings, and I've seen it in educational settings. Now, what you don't wanna do is end up saying, "this is the disabled room". Maybe you do wanna have a room that is accessible in a particular way, but you just don't wanna make people feel like you're herding them out of sight.

Kate Johnston: Right.

Kristy Anne Cox: Also a mother's lounge, or a parent's lounge.

Kate Johnston: Yes, I was gonna say that. Yeah.

Kristy Anne Cox: Where someone can go with their noisy or crying child if they need to nurse. That's another way to add excellent accessibility.

Kate Johnston: And then I have one other thing, 'cause this actually happens. It's happened twice now in the last two years. Please, please do not schedule all the brown people on DEI day. Don't do that. We actually know each other, we would like to support each other, and if I'm in panels all day but I can't go and see my friends be in panels all day, I'mma be mad. I'm gonna be so mad.

And also, all of the brown people will look at that and go, "well, clearly you didn't want us here for the other two days, so we're gonna leave".

Kristy Anne Cox: Yeah.

Kate Johnston: And that did happen. You know, so if that's what you want and you're running the SF-KKK, okay, that's how you do that. But I would like to support not doing that.

Kristy Anne Cox: Remember that your panelists and your moderators also want to enjoy the convention. It's worthwhile for people on scheduling just to like, pay attention. "Hey, this person has six things in two days, maybe I should check in with them and make sure they don't just say yes to everything because they don't know how to say no."

Kate Johnston: Mm-hmm.

Kristy Anne Cox: But yeah, not putting everybody on the same day from a particular marginalization group is really, really important, because you're also depriving them of the opportunity to connect with other people and build community in solidarity with their group.

Which is another big reason people come to cons, is to meet their peer writers, the people you're gonna come up with, and you can't meet 'em if they're back to back.

Kate Johnston: And I think one of the things that we have been neglecting is that—and I know we do this at ICFA, but—we really do need to have like a ballroom with really good filtration, where everybody can just freaking mingle.

Kristy Anne Cox: Oh yeah.

Kate Johnston: There's not enough space to do that in. There's just not, and we never get enough time with people. And I swear to God, half the time that we're all, you know, freaking out and sad when somebody dies, is that we only managed to have two conversations with them in 35 years because everything was just all happening at once.

Kristy Anne Cox: Yeah.

Well, we are out of time. I guess for listeners and for our readers, I wanna say, cut yourself a little slack if you're making mistakes when you're learning how to do this. Disability as a community is a very diverse group of littler communities in a trench coat, trying to get into a movie theater where they don't want us to come in.

And a lot of it is trying to find a way to get all those groups to work together, which is similar in larger social justice movements, like disability justice. I think disabled people, it's okay to make mistakes as you're learning this stuff, but you also need to be open to listening and changing behavior.

So if you're listening to this and thinking, I made a mistake in running my local con, well, I'm more focused on "how can you do better?"

Kate Johnston: Yeah.

Kristy Anne Cox: What are your thoughts to wrap us up here, Kate?

Kate Johnston: Yeah, I would like to second that. Like, I'm less interested in blame than I am in "let's make the next one better than the one I'm talking about". That sort of thing. That's pretty much where I'm going with this.

And actually we have a ton more questions and answers to go with this, so you know, I'm fine with saying this was part one.

Kristy Anne Cox: Yeah.

Kate Johnston: And we'll pick up with part two next time, 'cause we can finish this.

Kristy Anne Cox: Well, let's wrap this episode.

So thank you for listening everyone. You can find more episodes of this on the Strange Horizons website. You can also search "Writing While Disabled" and look for either my name, Kristy Anne Cox, or Kate's name. You're going by LM Kate Johnston.

Kate Johnston: Yes, correct.

Kristy Anne Cox: And please feel free to share this with the hashtag #WritingWhileDisabled, and the hashtag #StrangeHorizons, and ask us any questions you have. We wanna hear your thoughts. We probably don't wanna promote your book, but we definitely wanna hear your questions about disability and science fiction spaces and writing.

All right, till we meet again.

Kate Johnston: All right. Excelsior!